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Aankhon ko - आँखों को
Friday, December 31, 2004
Thursday, December 30, 2004
சிவன்மேல் ஒரு சீற்றம்
திடீரென்று ஒரு நாள் "பிரதோஷம் என்பது சிவன் ஆடும் நாள்" என்று யாரோ ஒருவர் சொன்னார். அதுபோக எல்லாதேவர்களும் கயிலாய மலையில் போய் நடனம் காண்பதாகவும் சொன்னார். அப்போது தோன்றியது ஒரு கற்பனை - மனிதர்கள் மட்டும் என்ன குறைந்து போய்விட்டனர் ? படைப்பில் எல்லாரும் ஒன்று தானே ? அப்படி என்றால் மனிதருக்கு மட்டும் ஏன் நடனம் பார்க்க கிடைக்க மாட்டேன் என்கிறது ? எனவே ஒரு மனித பக்தன் உரிமையோடு சிவனை மிரட்டுவது போல் இந்தப் பாட்டை அமைத்திருக்கிறேன். இதனை ஷண்முகப்ரிய ராகத்தில் மெட்டமைத்து இருக்கிறேன்.
பல்லவி:
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நடனம் நான் காண வேண்டும்
நடராஜனின் நடனம் நான் காண வேண்டும்
சரணம் 1:
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எகாந்தமாய் இருந்து பிரதோஷ நாளினில்
தவமும் கலைத்து நடம் புரிகின்றவன்
கிரகங்கள் துதி பாட கணம் கோடி லயித்தாட
கயிலாய மலையில் இடம் தருகின்றவன்
தானாடும் அழகினையே தவம் செய்தும் மாந்தர்க்கு
காணாது செய்து அடம் புரிகின்றவன்
ஊனோடு பிறந்திட்ட ஒருகுற்றமல்லாது
குறையில்லை எமக்கென்று அறியாதவன்
நாவிருந்து புகழ்பாடும் வல்லமையை மனிதருக்கே
நல்கியவன் இதை நினையாதவன்
சரணம் 2:
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ஊழியிலும் அழியாது ஓம்காரப் பொருளாகி
ஒருகுவளை நெருப்போடு ஆடும் சிவன்
ஆழியிலும் நீரெல்லாம் ஆவியாய் மாறியும்
அணையாத தாகமொடு வாடும் சிவன்
உன்னடனம் நான்காண வேண்டுமென பலமுறைகள்
உரிமையிலும் கேட்டிடினும் கேளா சிவன்
உன்னீல கண்டத்தின் உள்ளார்ந்த நஞ்சுண்டு
உயிரினை உறுதியுடன் மாய்ப்பான் இவன்
உடலினை யோகத்தில் காய்ப்பான் இவன்
பல்லவி:
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நடனம் நான் காண வேண்டும்
நடராஜனின் நடனம் நான் காண வேண்டும்
சரணம் 1:
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எகாந்தமாய் இருந்து பிரதோஷ நாளினில்
தவமும் கலைத்து நடம் புரிகின்றவன்
கிரகங்கள் துதி பாட கணம் கோடி லயித்தாட
கயிலாய மலையில் இடம் தருகின்றவன்
தானாடும் அழகினையே தவம் செய்தும் மாந்தர்க்கு
காணாது செய்து அடம் புரிகின்றவன்
ஊனோடு பிறந்திட்ட ஒருகுற்றமல்லாது
குறையில்லை எமக்கென்று அறியாதவன்
நாவிருந்து புகழ்பாடும் வல்லமையை மனிதருக்கே
நல்கியவன் இதை நினையாதவன்
சரணம் 2:
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ஊழியிலும் அழியாது ஓம்காரப் பொருளாகி
ஒருகுவளை நெருப்போடு ஆடும் சிவன்
ஆழியிலும் நீரெல்லாம் ஆவியாய் மாறியும்
அணையாத தாகமொடு வாடும் சிவன்
உன்னடனம் நான்காண வேண்டுமென பலமுறைகள்
உரிமையிலும் கேட்டிடினும் கேளா சிவன்
உன்னீல கண்டத்தின் உள்ளார்ந்த நஞ்சுண்டு
உயிரினை உறுதியுடன் மாய்ப்பான் இவன்
உடலினை யோகத்தில் காய்ப்பான் இவன்
கண்ணன் பாடல்கள் - 1 - வாடும் பயிரினையே கண்ணம்மா
கண்ணன் பாடல்களில் கண்ணம்மாவிற்கு காதல் கடிதம் தந்தவர் பாரதியார். அந்த மேதை எழுதியது போல் இல்லாவிடினும் அச்சாயலில் எழுத முனைந்து நான் எழுதிய ஒரு படைப்பு
வாடும் பயிரினையே கண்ணம்மா
வாழ்த்திடும் மழையினைப்போல்- உனை
நாடும் உயிரினுக்கே நீயுமே
நல்முகம் காட்டாயோ ?
ஓடி ஒளியாதேடி என்முகம்
உன்னழகில்லை என்று - நீ
சூடிய தாமரையும் சேற்றில்
சுகமாய் இருந்த ஒன்றே.
மேனி வைரமடி கண்ணம்மா
மின்னுதென்று உனைப்புகழ்ந்தால்
தேனிசை சொற்களினைக் கொட்டாது
தேனி போல் கொட்டுகின்றாய்
நடையின் நளினங்களை கண்ணம்மா
நான் கண்டு மூச்௪¢ரைத்தேன் - அந்த
இடை கரம் இவை இடையே கதிரோன்
இடறுதல் நான் ரசித்தேன்
சொல்லினில் கடுமையுண்டு கண்ணம்மா
கண்ணிலே கருணையுண்டு -இது
கள்ள மழை பெய்து சூரியன்
கனல்தரல் போலன்றோ ?
என்னைத் தள்ளாதேடி கண்ணம்மா
என்றுநான் கெஞ்சி விட்டால் - நீ
அன்னை போலிரங்கி என்மனம்
ஆறிடச் செய்திடுவாய்.
கண்கள் கிடக்கட்டுமே கண்ணம்மா
கால்களை போலுனது
அங்கமெதிலும் ஒரு உயர்வையும்
அழகையும் கண்டதில்லை.
வாடும் பயிரினையே கண்ணம்மா
வாழ்த்திடும் மழையினைப்போல்- உனை
நாடும் உயிரினுக்கே நீயுமே
நல்முகம் காட்டாயோ ?
ஓடி ஒளியாதேடி என்முகம்
உன்னழகில்லை என்று - நீ
சூடிய தாமரையும் சேற்றில்
சுகமாய் இருந்த ஒன்றே.
மேனி வைரமடி கண்ணம்மா
மின்னுதென்று உனைப்புகழ்ந்தால்
தேனிசை சொற்களினைக் கொட்டாது
தேனி போல் கொட்டுகின்றாய்
நடையின் நளினங்களை கண்ணம்மா
நான் கண்டு மூச்௪¢ரைத்தேன் - அந்த
இடை கரம் இவை இடையே கதிரோன்
இடறுதல் நான் ரசித்தேன்
சொல்லினில் கடுமையுண்டு கண்ணம்மா
கண்ணிலே கருணையுண்டு -இது
கள்ள மழை பெய்து சூரியன்
கனல்தரல் போலன்றோ ?
என்னைத் தள்ளாதேடி கண்ணம்மா
என்றுநான் கெஞ்சி விட்டால் - நீ
அன்னை போலிரங்கி என்மனம்
ஆறிடச் செய்திடுவாய்.
கண்கள் கிடக்கட்டுமே கண்ணம்மா
கால்களை போலுனது
அங்கமெதிலும் ஒரு உயர்வையும்
அழகையும் கண்டதில்லை.
Friday, November 12, 2004
Reckless Ramblings - 4 - திருநெல்வேலியில் ஒரு தீபாவளி..
திருநெல்வேலியில் ஒரு தீபாவளி..
தீவுளி வந்திடிச்சின்னாலே ஒரெ சந்தோசம்தேன். பாளையங்கோட்டைல இருந்து அடைக்காணில இருக்குற எங்க பாட்டி வீட்டுக்கு ரெண்டு நா முன்னமேயே போயிருவம். எங்கூரில எங்க வூட்லேந்து காலையில 26Aனு ஒரு போர்டு போட்டு வரும் ஒரு கட்டபொம்மன் வண்டி. செவந்திப்பட்டில எங்க பெரியப்ப இருக்காக. இந்த வண்சி "26 ஆ டவுன்"னு போர்டு போட்டு செவந்திப்பட்டில இருந்து கெளம்பும். நாங்க மகராஜநகர்ல ஏறிக்குவோம். நெரிய பேருக்கு இந்த வண்டிதேன் டவுனுக்கு போகவிட்டு "34B பள்ளாக்கால் பொதுக்குடி" பஸ் ஆகப்போவுத்துன்னு தெரியாது. இதெல்லாம் எங்கள மாதிரி செல பேருக்கு மட்டும்தேன் தெரியும்னு எனக்கு ஒரு சந்தோசம். இந்த ஒரு வண்டி தேன் எங்கூருக்குள்ள போயிட்டி வரும். மத்தவண்டி எல்லாம் போவாது. வெளியிலே எறக்கி விட்டுருவானுங்க. ஒரு மைலு நடக்கணும். சுத்த போரு.
தீவாளி அன்னிக்கு மூணு மணிக்கு எளுந்திருக்க சொல்லுவாக. காலையிலே எவன் எந்திரிப்பேய்ன் ? முணு மணிக்கெல்லாம் எந்திரிக்கரதா அப்ப அம்மாகிட்ட சொல்லிபுட்டு வீராப்புல ஒறங்கிருவேன். ஆனா காலையிலே அப்பாரு எண்ணை தேய்க்க "எலே எளுந்திரிலே..கெளக்கு வெளுக்கப் போவுது"னு மெல்ல படுத்திருக்குர போர்வைய உருவுவாக. "யெப்பே..செத்த நாளி இன்னும் தூங்குரேன்"னு வாய் விட்டு கேக்க தெகிரியம் கெடயாது. மெல்ல போர்வைய உருவின பொறவு ஃபேன் காத்து மேல பட்டு குளுரும். கொஞ்சம் அதுக்ககனாச்சும் தள்ளி படுப்பேய்ன். அவரு மெல்ல அடியிலேர்ந்து பாய உருவுவாரு..கொஞ்ச நேரம் அப்டியே உருண்டு போய் தரையில படுப்பேன். ஆகா..தரைல படுக்கர சொகம் எதுலயும் இல்ல."ஏலே..தரைல படுக்காதலே வாதம் வந்திரும்"னு அப்பாரு சத்தம் போடுவாக.
முளிச்சிக்குடுவேன். அதுக்குள்ள பாட்டி தாத்தா அத்தை மாமா எல்லாரும் வரிசயா குளிக்க வென்னீ போட்டு வெச்சுருப்பாக பாட்டி. ஆமே, எல்லாரும் வந்திருவாக கொண்டாட. யாத்தி..எம்புட்டு பெரிய அண்டா அது! அடி பம்புல தண்ணிய அடிச்சி அண்டாவுல கொட்டுவாக. கொல்லை திண்ணைல எங்கனையெல்லாம் ஒக்கார வெச்சி உச்சந்தலையில சூடு பரக்க எண்ண தேப்பாக. தலையில எண்ண தேச்சா சரி. மூஞ்சில வேர தேப்பாக.
"பாட்டி, மூஞ்சில வேணாம் பாட்டி"னு கத்துவேன். "எலெ..தேக்கலன்ன, மூஞ்சி கொரங்கா போயிரும்" நு சொல்லி தேய்ப்பாக. பயந்துகிட்டு தேய்க்க விடுவேன். உச்சந்தலைல இருந்து கால் முட்டி வரிக்கும் எண்ண தான். பாட்டியே குளுப்பாட்டுவாக. "தாத்தா கால்ல விழுந்து கும்புட்டுகிட்டு புது சொக்கா வாங்கிக்க"ன்னு அப்பாரு சொல்லுவாரு. புது சொக்காய்ல தாத்தா மஞ்சக் கலரும் சோப்பு கலரும் வெக்கும் போது ஒரு மாதிரி இருக்கும். ஆன தாத்தா காலருக்கு அடியில வெக்கரதுனால தெரியாது. அதுல ஒரு சந்தோசம்.
"யெப்பா..வெடி போடலாம்பா"
அப்பாரு ஒரு பெரிய தாம்பளத்துல ரத்திரி குளுருல கொஞ்சம் நமத்துப் போன வெடி எல்லாம் சூடு பண்ணி தருவாக. ஒவ்வொண்ணா வெடிப்பேன்லா, அப்போ அத்தான் வெங்கிடேசு வெடியோட வருவான். ஏதோ அவன் தேன் வெடிக்கரதுல ரொம்ப நல்லாக் கத்து வெச்ச மாதிரி எனக்கு எல்லாஞ் சொல்லித் தருவான். ஒரு வாட்டி, லக்ஷ்மி அவுட்டு வெடிக்க போனாம்லா, அப்போ அவன் வரதுக்கு முன்னமெயெ வெடிச்சிருச்சு. கை பொத்திருச்சு. எங்க்ப்பா தேன் அவன் கைய ஒடனே தோச மாவுக்குள்ள விட வெச்சு ஒதவி செஞ்சாரு. அந்தத் தீவாளி முளுக்க அவன் பின்ன வெடிக்கவே இல்ல. நான் வெடிக்கரதையே பாத்துகிட்டு இருந்தான். அப்பா ஒரு வாட்டி பென்சில் வெடி வாங்கி வந்திருந்தாக. கைசக்கரமும் கூட வாங்கி இருந்திச்சு. அதுல ஒண்ணு கையிலயே வெடிச்சிரிச்சு. யாருக்கும் தெரியாம கைய தண்ணீல முக்கி எடுத்துகிட்டேன் அப்பொல்லாம் எங்கூட்ல ஐசு தண்ணி இல்ல. நல்ல எரிஞ்சுது. ஆனா காமிச்சுக்கல.
எங்க க்ராமத்துல தானே கொண்டாடுவொம்...அப்பொ எனக்கு மாரியப்பன், மருதமுத்து, எசக்கினு நெரய பிரண்டுங்க இருந்தாங்க. எங்கூட்டுக்கு பக்கத்துல "கோமா மாமி" ங்கரவுக வீடு இருந்திச்சு. அது ரொம்ப நா மூடிகெடந்துச்சு. அணுகுண்டு எல்லாம் அந்த வீட்டு வாசல் தேன் வெப்பொம். அந்த வீட்டு வாசல் தூணு மேல ஒரு காக்கா கூடு இருந்திச்சு..எசக்கி அதுக்கு பக்கத்துல ஒரு வெடிய வெக்சுப்புட்டான். வெடில காக்கா முட்டை கீள விளுந்து ஒடஞ்சிருச்சி. அதுலேந்து அவன "காக்கா முட்ட"னு பட்டபேரு வெச்சி தேன் கூப்பிடுவோம்.
வெடி எல்லாம் வெடிச்சுபுட்டு வந்தா அம்மா "எலே..கை கால எல்லாம் நல்ல களுவிட்டு வாங்கடா..பணியாரம் சுட்டு வெச்சிருக்கேன்"னு கத்தும். கைல எல்லாம் வெள்ளை வெள்ளையா மருந்துப் பவுடரு. அதை களுவரதுக்குள்ள ரொம்ப கஸ்டம். கொழாயில தண்ணி தொரந்து விட்டு கல்லுல தேச்சு களுவுவோம். மொத்தமா எல்லாரும் சேந்து சாப்பிட ஒக்காருவம். தாத்தாவுக்கு மட்டும் வெள்ளித்தட்டு வெப்பாக. எங்களுக்கெல்லாம் எலைல போடுவாக. மீதி வெடி வெடிக்கணும்னு சொல்லிட்டு சீக்கிரம் தின்னுருவேன். திருப்பி வெடி வெடிக்க ஓடிருவேன்.
ஒரு பத்து மணி போல கலியாணம் "கிட்டி விளையாட வரியால்லே"னு கேப்பான். எங்கப்பா கிட்ட சொல்லிட்டு ஒடிருவேன். அம்ம கிட்ட கேட்ட திட்டு/ அடிதேன் விளும். போய் வாய்க்கா பக்கம் வெளயாட ஆரம்பிப்பொம். சாட் பூட் த்ரி போட்டு "ஒன் டச் டூ டச்" நு கேட்டுபுட்டு வெளடுவோம். நான் அஞ்சு டச்செல்லாம் ஆடி பாயின்டு எடுத்திருக்கென்.
மத்தியானம் சோறு திங்க வீட்டுக்கு வருவோம். அப்பொ அம்மா வைவாக. "வெயில்ல வெளயாடி ஏம்ல கருத்து போறே"ன்னு. சோரு திண்ணுட்டு, மீதி கெடக்கர வெடிச்ச வெடி மருந்தெல்லாம் ஒரு பேப்பரில கொட்டுவம். சந்துரு தேன் நல்ல செய்வான் இத. எல்லத்தையும் வெச்சு கடைசில தீ மூட்டுவம். பக்குனு ஒரு ஃப்லாஷ் வரும். நல்ல இருக்கும் அது.
இதெல்லாதையும் வுட டிரெயின் வெடி தான் பெஸ்டு. ரெண்டு வீட்டுக்கு நடுவில கயிரு கட்டி "வுஸ் வுஸ்"னு போக வெப்பம். ஆன அப்பா ரொம்ப வெடிக்க விட மாட்டக அத.
இப்போ நெனச்சாலும் நல்லாத்தேன் இருக்கு. பலகாரம்..பணியாரம்..வெடி..
Tuesday, July 06, 2004
Reckless Ramblings - 3 - Naaz and Friction
In this article I want to highlight, a war of words that happened between me and another DFer (of http://tfmpage.com/ ) by?the name Naaz.? All started with Naaz referring to the Neon OM on vadapazani gopuram as an eye-sore in the context of the music album "NinaiththaalE inikkum" and me responding strongly to it.? The entire transcript was funny to read later since neither of us had conveyed anything concrete at the end :-)? But it was a war between me and him in the truest sense :-) Read on:
From: Naaz(@ 24.87.30.219) on: Sun Jun 20 03:21:28 EDT 2004
Saravanan -
Ninaiththaale Inikkum was a hollow propped up by a scaffolding of songs. Your write-up, sentimental in it's evocation of a memory that harks back to a less analytical time (or maybe not) is the flipside of adulation - a flashback as parody. Not the write-up, but what it has newly revealed to me (and maybe just me) - about how manufactured inanity can one day be celebrated as a thing of consequence.
Even excellence.
Ninaiththaale Inikkum was an exercise that can be best described as saleable compositions in search of a (rudderless?)plot. Of course, it wasn't there. I remember being mesmerised by the same things that floored and wowed you (gee, you remember things like Hotels and Promenades, and I couldn't compete with that) and looking back, with the aid of your detailed synopsis, it seems like so much ado about appalling nothing. This is not scoffing at the memory of things past, but seeing it without the glad-eye of nostalgia. By that I mean imbuing the misadventures and misreadings of the past with a cloying romantic "hallmark" glow, seldom allowing the lens of present-day maturity to refract it. The inisistence to keep things inviolate, against reason, has always puzzled me.
Speaking from a purely subjective (what else?) standpoint, I don't believe NI to be the best work of MSV either. The buzz around the music was half generated by the assumed rivalry between the incumbent and his new "rustic" challenger. NI was the supposed "glam" repartee, an elan, that the old guard was still in control. But was he? Don't the songs have a certain "prefab" quality about them?
Moondru Mudichchu, Aboorva Raagangal and the later Andha Ezhu Naatkal all make NI seem derivative, if not faux modern. It was MSV out of his skin, simulated and psychedelic, like a neon "vacancy" sign. Or a flourescent OM on the Vadapalani Gopuram.
Admittedly, that also sounds a lot like the plot (to which I dare not add another word after your total recall above!)
If NI lived up to anything, it was the literality of it's title. There was sweetness in the thought. But, looking back, we should at least recognise that abject thoughtlessness, in the long run (about three hours?) is seldom sweet. :-)
From: MS (@ 24.168.196.217) on: Mon Jun 21 12:24:00 EDT 2004
Naaz:
"It was MSV out of his skin, simulated and psychedelic, like a neon "vacancy" sign. Or a flourescent OM on the Vadapalani Gopuram."
Unwarranted stmt. Please try not induct religious references for establishing either your point or flights of verbiage.
MS -
Being a contrarian is not a good vocation to have (especially in the Land of Heck) and around here I don't expect anybody else to raise their voice in support or defense of my posts. (Music4Ever did his best with the specificity of my points and this exchange, and for that I am indeed thankful.)
It is nice of you to have read my post and to have singled out (what you deem to be) an "unwarranted statement."
What metaphors I choose and how I employ them is my prerogative. I don't see anything pejorative or blasphemous in the above image. In fact, if you were not so in denial, you will acknowledge that many a temple site in India has been disfigured by coloured lights, tubes and television screens - all haphazard and out of place. And, yes, I've seen flourescent OMs on the Vadapalani Gopuram. It stands out not because it is aesthetic.
The impetus behind your post is not about the image or verbiage (which to me is better than bottomless irrelevance) but about calling my secular credentials as a muslim into question.
Masked bigotry is still bigotry. You must be confident in your belief that no one here will take you to task for your petty, communal, faith-based chicanery. Some might even see your cowardice as courage.
How well you know your constituents.
This used to be a fun place free of rants. More and more it seems people come here to scratch their itches rather than enjoy the songs and engage others in discussing the SOTD. Can all the non-musical debates and musical debates that verge on the personal be taken to e-mails or phone calls please.
MS, I feel Naaz was just emphasizing his view that MSV's efforts in NI appear as incongrous/ artificial as the flourescent lights on a temple tower (the lights are an eyesore, I'm sure you'll agree!). Knowing Naaz for nearly two years now, I'm sure he didn't intend any religious reference beyond this metaphorical allusion.
bb, who is the lyricist of 'Oru ooril'? 'Ondra renda aasaigal' was written by Thamarai, if I remember right. Was the SOTD also written by Thamarai?
Saravanan,
I believe Thamarai wrote all the songs in the KK soundtrack.
Saravanan:
"Knowing Naaz for nearly two years now" - good for you and god bless you. To me, he is just another forumer throwing unnecessary flame baits.
Naaz:
That was quite a long speech without a dais (or a basis), a pretty non-musical one flaunting your secular credentials and dispensing unsolicited comments, advice and judgment. Complying with Udhaya's suggn and committed to talking in line with the topic, unlike you, I choose not to reply in such an incongruous and grandiose fashion.
OTOH, if you at some point compulsorily need a 'courageous' reply, I will be happy to provide you with one if I find it a priority ever over an e-mail.
andholan @ SOTD.page. :)
And no one apart from "author OISG" has answered my question regarding who wrote " tale of two cities" not even you naaz ;-) tell me!
while i did not like Naaz's comments about NI in particular I rather liked the Om bit. But may be it was the agnostic " Hindu" in me which caused me to like it- MS!
MS - My humble comment on your comment. I am sure Naaz did not mean to hurt anybody's feeling. His statement did not sound having an agenda. And as long as it doesnt hurt anyone, i think reference to religion is ok.
Naaz- me too not a big fan of florescent OMs
// Digression
MS, it was indeed your knee jerk reaction that was most unwarranted and having read Naaz's postings, he would be the last person to bring in religious flames.It was crystal clear that he meant the aesthetic deprival in that Neon glow or it could also be akin to cinema paatu kacherry for temple festivals. Request the moral brigade to show some tolerance
Ada ennappa..kaasikku pOnaalum karumam tholaiyaadhungara maadhiri...
Dubya (and other pseudonyms to come)..inga naan oNNum moral kodi pidichchukkittu alaiyalai swami. naanum idhE idaththula almost 6 varushama kuppai kottikkituu dhaan irukkEn. yaaru kittayum vambu saNdaikku pOna maadhiri oru reputation innum illai. vENumna pOi pazankadhaigaLai thONdi paarunga. knee-jerk reaction kodukkara aasaami naan illai. naan sonnadhu oru rikkostu. adhuvume regular a ezudhura oru aaL kitta sonnadhu. (eththanaiyO asingamaana posts/threads ellaam varuthu..adhukkelaama reply paNNikittum, request paNNikkittum irukkEn ?). enakku kalaik kaNla(aesthetic) konjam power irukkaradhaala kaNNu ezavu sariyaa theriyalai. neenga nalla paarththu sandhoshappadungayya. aaLai vidunga.
isai sindhum idaththil ippOdhu vasai mattumdhaan irukkiRadhu.
bb,
I'm glad you're showcasing some TMS songs in his prime for many here only have regrettable memories of his Thanglish songs from the late 70s. This is one of the songs that was so meticulously woven that the lyrics, singing, and music gell effortlessly. Another stellar effort from Vali that seems better yet when compared to his post-80s works.
To all the drive-by shooters aiming at MS,
His request to someone to be a bit more sensitive in his comments has got him pilloried now?
I often use the expression "Goddamn it" without a thought, without any malicious intent, to express my frustration. I once said it at an airport and this lady requested politely, "Please don't take the Lord's name in vain."
According to the participants of this forum, I would've been okay ridiculing the lady for being a Bible thumper with clear motives to deride my Hindu leanings, or I could've gone off on her about my constitutional right to say whatever I pleased, or really laid it down to her about how I didn't care about religion or God and that she had no right to impose her sensibilities on me.
But I just responded with, "Sorry, I didn't mean it." Legally and circumstantially, I could've cornered the lady with my logic in an angry rebuttal. But courtesy dictated that I didn't have to be so cavalier with a sensitive subject in a public place.
(This might be a bit of a bore, so I urge others with better things to do to skip this entirely.)
Manufacturing Sacrilege:
In my post regarding NI I was addressing two things. Up front was my contention that the media context preceding the film's release was so overwhelming (a veritable contest in every TFM fan's mind) that MSVs music and "status" became the focus. Following that thesis, my personal evaluation of the album was that it was one of excess, where moments of true brilliance and verve were lost in an overpowering, commercial "hip" ness. Half the songs in NI, in my view, seemed tacked-on and unnecessary. I also said that this might have been an indirect consequence of an aimless, makeitupasyougoalong plot, which had a "vacancy," - indeed a "hollow" at its narrative core.
To highlight the "out of place, without merit, and poorly modern" nature of the excess (in the album) I used this simile: "It was MSV out of his skin, simulated and psychedelic, like a neon "vacancy" sign. Or a flourescent OM on the Vadapalani Gopuram."
Why the Vadapalani Gopuram and not a church or a mosque or buddhist temple? That's a fair question.
Primarily, because it is there and I have seen it many a time and wondered: why have they cheapened the OM so? And more importantly, because this particular temple is a stone's throw from the studios that brought us NI.
The implication: When you are in a neighbourhood of excess, small wonder that the flashy vacuity creeps into spiritual symbols nearby!
A comparison that was employed to draw attention to "commercial corruption" - in the album, as well as in the "neonised" OM, was adroitly turned around to allege that it was a statment that desecrated the piety of the OM!!
But what would make the allegation stick? But, of course, the person who had used OM in the simile was not a Hindu - and, hence, they could only devalue the symbols of that particular religion!
Show anybody with a rudimentary interpretational ability the context and the phrase I have used and they will see no SACRILEGE in it. Nobody else here has seen added-value in a "flourescent OM," either. And this is as good a sample of educated and aware "indians" as any.
Alas, the controversy was a non-starter, and the motivation was only the sensing of an opportunity to settle some old scores. The true context to this allegation resides not in my NI post, but in the exchanges that went by many months ago - around the time the duet Kanna Varuvaaya was featured as SOTD. Those who want to a referesher course in fresher than ever "payback" lists might want to look it up. The truth won't shock you - it might just give you that missing piece to this current zig-sacrilege.
OM was merely an opening to turn use a blunted knife yet again.
Consider this: If the intention was indeed to alert all posters to communal/religious allusions in their writing - if only to urge them to be a tad more careful before such inclusions or references - would you fling that request for the greater common good, thus:
"Unwarranted stmt. Please try not induct religious references for establishing either your point or flights of verbiage." ??
A rude opening without any context. The abbreviated "stmt" tells us that the writer is in some sort of rush; something seems to have snapped. There is no explanation as to why my statment is unwarranted. My first thought on seeing the criticism: did they really read my whole post or just that one line? After all, context is everything. The next line has two interesting moments: A preposition goes missing (the rage persists) and the word "induct" - a verb that has deep, religious roots in the clergy - makes an appearance. Somewhat ironic, you'd think, in a post that is whacking you NOT to use sacred references in posts! And, if the motive was indeed to breed "sensitivity" and avoid "controversy" - why add "flights of verbiage" in the sign off?
Why not end with: "not induct (sic) religious references for establishing your points in your posts."? After all, the intention was to ask everybody (or just me) to be extra-careful with sacred symbols and their literary use in their write-ups?
Go ahead and call it creative freedom, and I'll be the last person to take issue with that right. Ah, but divinity was merely the decoy. That phrase holds more than just an idiomatic betrayal.
Seriously, - after writing reams and reams in this very portal on Kandha Muruga Achchudha Kanna Krishna Kali Magamayi Letchumi (and a host of dieties who adorn the Hindu pantheon,) and reveling and rejoicing in the poetic piety of the compositions with the participants in the VJ thread... on the day of the NI festival here, I jumped out of bed, charged to my computer, suddenly all rabid to take the OM apart. That's what secular "indian" muslims like me do once in a while. How you say - OM bashing?
Believe that, and I'll be sure to honk when I see you lining up to buy manufactured sacrilege.
(Thanks to all those who read the NI comparison and got the point I was making, even if you disagreed with my thesis. I respect your literariness and maturity. Thanks also for the messages of support and solidarity that were sent my way through email. I hope I have done what you thought I should do.)
Naaz:
One could miss a preposition and not the point. One could write an essay and convey nothing (as you have yourself claimed - boring). A typo or a grammo, (ooh..these are not in the 'diction'ary - OED or QED..sob sob), indicates the occasional aberration that humans are susceptible to and extending your mile-long analysis based on a missed preposition and declaring it as extra-contextual and rage-fueled, can only prove your commitment to make premature conclusions. You can happily take all my past-posts, sit and analyze every latin-greek root and claim negativity in every single letter. And I will not bother to reply.
I sincerely believed (and still do) that it was a reference totally uncalled for. Trying to portray this exchange as having seeded by vengeance, sounds like a kid complaining in the utmost insecure fashion (nee annikku enniya adichEyilla.. vaa vaa vechchukkirEn..engammaatta solli koduthu..try finding something else which is reasonable dude). Your earlier discussion (or debacle ?) with 'diction' (Kanna varuvaaya times) is well archived for anybody who would want to know how 'gracious' you were in accepting what was correct.
A person intact in sanity would have said in response to my stmt :
"MS - I did not mean to refer to the symbols in a derogatory way. It was just a casual remark which had no further implications. Your reaction is strong and unnecessary".
And I would have simply said:
"Sorry Naaz. I probably mistook an innocuous remark in a cursory glance and apologies for that. I would still request not to use preferably, some religious references in your future posts to avoid such confusions".
And the problem would have been solved then. In stead, you chose to ridicule baselessly about the faith and principles I adhere to as chicanery, painting a secular portrait of yourself and communally sensitive individual off me.
Yes, I was indeed emphatic in the way I was conveying and I am not denying it. I am NOT an agnostic and I sincerely felt irked by such a statement. I would retort the SAME way if you or somebody else had said that NI is sore like the neon crosses on church or that MSV's singing in "jagame mandhiram shiva shambo" is like the loud namaas that pervades the ambience in the dawn. Reason ? It is a sensitive issue whether you digest it or egest it unassimilated.
BTW, maturity is in being able to accept things "as they are" and not "as you perceive". If that were the case, your display in the exchanges on 'diction' are clearly antonymous. And for once, please stop dispensing advices and analyses embellished by your strident claims of linguistic superiority which reflect nothing but your circuitous way of converging into rubbish.
And this "will" be my last response ever in this regard to you or anybody else.
Frankly, MS, I wouldn't give the time of day to your types. I wouldn't have bothered if I had not received three messages today from posters here - yes here, right from this thread.
Next time a statement irks you step back and ask yourself this: How much of that "insult" is really part of the statement? And how much of it your own reading into that statement? Does your dislike for the person and their views in general ever colour your reading? The evidence is aplenty for all to see.
I guess other NOT agnostic people who read my comment got it (repeat): Neon does nothing for the spiritual essence of any religious icon - OM or Crescent or Crucifix. In fact, it is THE touch of crass to a perfectly pure symbol.
It's not just the typo and the grammo, but you are completely on your own in the interpretational wilderness. You must see that for yourself, surely? Sadly, that's how things are for you right now, and that must be tough.
Yes, you played the religion card - and in a base, vengeful, manipulative way. Unfortunately for you, all that "holier than thou" fakery didn't wash (you had to come back with two additional "wondering" posts.) Still, people here saw your outrage for what it really was: disingenuous and vindictive. That was your chicanery - not your faith's.
And definitely not the line to summon to inaugurate a course on "sensitivity training"
- but you had to compound it further, with this:
"And for once, please stop dispensing advices and analyses embellished by your strident claims of linguistic superiority which reflect nothing but your circuitous way of converging into rubbish."
Like we needed proof of your reserves of animosity, and yet another example of the greater depths of classnessness to which you could sink. I didn't know my "linguistic superiority" (did I make such a claim?) was such a thorn in your side. How much you must hate me and my presence here, MS. But you know what? I am not surprised.
Hate is what Bigots do best, don't they?
(Glad that the "diction" duel is archived. There must also be a list of Chithra's mispronunciations list which I'd provided. I'm sure that's there too. Once a linguist? Don't worry though, I don't believe I'll be calling you for lessons in English and good "grace." I get by quite nicely with what I've got, thank you.)
Naaz/MS, you've made your points. No more digressions, please.
bb,
I wouldn't've bothered to write this, but 8 people from this thread wrote me, (yes, this very thread) and appreciated your last post, so I had to pass it on. Otherwise, you know I wouldn't give you the time of day.
MS, fitting reply on Jun 25th. animosity ellaam avar manasula vechchindhu ungala solraarae! Nothing much has changed;-)
bb, neenga oru vaati sonnaa..:) Unfortunate that such arguments are taking place even this thread.
Reckless Ramblings - 2 - Naaz and Diction
The first of my wars with Naaz started with him advocating a new meaning for "diction" when the entire tfmpage was against his "views".? Read on :-)? LAter when I engaged in a war of words with him for another reason (reckless ramblings - 3) , he presumed I was "Settling old scores" :-)
bb -
"Chitra's diction is superb in this song (as it usually is)."
There is an error, and a lie in the above statement. The "diction" does not belong to the singer, it belongs to the poet/lyricist. And the paranthetical emphasis is something that can be proven wrong - in any song sung by Chitra.
Kanna Varuvaya is a classic example of how a tamizh song can be "malayalamised" (as many were, when sung by KJY and KSC) and yet tamils can be made to accept such moments as sublime and "apt."
What is "swargam idhuvo" please, if not malayalam?
What is "un mugham paarkire..." "nadhi orum ( shouldn't that be "oram"??) nadandhu..." "ragam seerkava (??)" "vidindhalum or nedunalum? (even with earphones and three encores, I couldn't figure this one out.)
Sorry to rain on your parade, but KJY and KSC are a dynamite combination in Kerala perhaps. But when they get together for a duet as the SOTD above, he carries on with his legendary devil-may-care attitude toward tamizh, and she, a bonafide disciple, irons out every tamizh nuance in the song, drops endings and renders the song ready for dialysis. (KSC manages this songs-seeking-life-support even when it is a vivacious, frolicky, no holds barred hindi song like "Bani Bani Bani Re Bani" from MPKDH. It must be a gift.)
Amazing what people will accept and celebrate. But we're all so adept at traversing this thin line between hypocrisy and honesty, we can pat ourselves on the back to raising it to a lever of a fine art.
Oh Naaz, probably , legendery singers like Chitra/KJY can avail of this phonetical , linguistic licence for exceptionally sweet songs.
Naaz, neenga enna ippidi ChithraGuptan maadiri kanakku paarkirel? I'm gonna get jitters when I sing any Thamizh song.
Naaz:
I think we have already had a discussion on this issue in a thread which tried listing chitra's numbers. I remember you pointing out a few mistakes of KSC in the song "mari mari" and went on to extend your theory of regular mispronunciation for the rest of her songs, which I found unjustified. And I am increasingly made to believe it is really difficult to please "purists" when it comes to performing an art, be it singing or writing or any other.
First of all, the word diction can, not only refer to the choice of words but also to the clarity in enunciation and I personally find no error in the way bb has used it in the sentence. To me, this aspect of yours, reflects more on your general attitude towards anything good that you come across ( or bad as you may opine).
swargam is a sanskrit word. There has earlier been an exchange of opinions in this regard between aruL and a few others including yours truly, about why singers sometimes do not pronounce some of the words ( e.g chondham is usually sung as sondham) as they are required by the grammar books, even if they knew the exact pronunciation. One reason attributed was the enhancement of melody. If a sanskrit word has to be used in tamil, you have two options:
(1) use it as it is - eg. this song
(2) tamil-ize the word - chorkam and use it.
For a purist like you, the usage of the sanskrit word itself must be a serious flaw. In such a case, you would hardly have to pan the singers who are delivering the words as the lyricist gives them. It is a pity that established artists like KJY, KSC have to be accused of a shoddy attitude towards tamil when they really have put good effort to improve their "diction". For that matter, can you tell me ONE singer who has sung ALL his / her songs without any pronunciation errors ?
I bet you sure cannot. And if pronunciation standards set by grammarians are to be followed meticulously, every song would be a nighmare to sing, leave alone the nightmares that we come across in the name of songs. (kaNNula viLakkeNNaiyai vittu thEdura gOShtingaLai oNNum seyya mudiyaadhu)
In this regard, I appreciate HJ for introducing a completely new trend where the singers are required to sing neither in tamil nor in english but in some alien language (ohasiyaanaa....vaahiyaanaa / ullaahi ullahi laahi / arigori bonsayi) which has helped singers to escape the swords of linguistic purists :-)
Naaz
Your search for answers as to why VJ is never as popular (among the hypocritical 'mass' audience) as a Janaki or Chitra is giving way to a frustration that's now bordering on the rude.
Appreciation is shaped by individual expectations, and if those expectations place attributes other than pronunciation and technical finesse as central to listening pleasure, can't you let that pass? It's another matter whether that appreciation has quite the cognitive maturity that you possess, but this is always going to be in the realm of subjectivity.
I appreciate your honesty and your devotion to the cause of the spoken thamizh word, but I think it's about time you cease these petulant fits that just don't tolerate a deviant worldview from yours. If it makes me a hypocrite to say that I enjoy Chitra's songs than VJs (blasphemy!), and KJY than TMS, let me line up in front.
Exactly Naaz! Well said. This has been my complaint about KSC and KJY always, though the voice is absolutely amazing.
Naaz,
great posting.none of the mistakes you pointed out would have arised for a casual listener.one has to listen real carefully to know them.
swargam is definitely malayalam :).
"vidindhalum or nedunalum?" after lot of encores i came to the conclusion that it is vidindhalum cause there is a clear "dh" in the word.
but i guess these are mineute black spots in otherwise a great song.So guess we should ignore them and indulge in this otherwise pleasurable song.
udhaya,
u r right the longing is beautifully expressed in those extended kanna's.the words seem to rise from bottom to top and linger at the top for a while... "kannaaaaa" "maalaaai" "malar choolaai".And the longing feeling is enhanched by the beautiful chorus.
because it is a song on krishna by meera.. u can notice meera's "tumbura kind of instrument"(dont know the name) instrument on the prelude and interludes.
Mythila -
Creative and Linguistic Licence is not an infinite concept. It, to be meaningful, still has to adhere finite notions and rules of clarity, nativity and ethos. When you sing a tamizh song ( glad to hear that you are a singer yourself) don't sing it like it is a song in your mother-tongue (if it isn't tamizh, that is) - sing it in a way that enhances the language and its riches in the eyes and ears of the native speakers. This is the only requisite. (of course, discerning native speakers/listeners.)
MS-
I have to disagree (slightly). Diction always belongs to the author (or the author's "pronunciation" for instance, if Vaali had to read Kanna Varuvaya, you could say that his expression was appropriate/commensurate with HIS "diction" . Singers, not being authors/poets, cannot be complimented for their diction. They can be appraised for their "pronunciation" of the Poet's "diction" or "style.") Hence, for bb to suggest that "Chitra's diction is superb" is misleading, as the diction does not belong to Chitra. "Diction" as a word falls in the category of the "spoken" (hence pronunciation) and "written" (hence style) word. Singing is neither spoken nor written - and usually, in the case of film music, is not the work of the "singer." It is a manner of "speaking" (on the page, or in front of the microphone) and the choice of "words." It has nothing to do with the art of "singing."
Of course, you may use it the way you choose, as that is your prerogative, even if the usage is wrong.
Suresh -
Here's what I find really hilarious: To say that somebody consistently "malayalamises" tamizh songs, is,apparently, symptomatic of my "frustration" bubbling up because VJ is not popular! How insightful.
Your phrase "Deviant worldview" would fit this overdetermination / interpretation of yours. I am not seeking answers to VJs lack of popularity - all the answers I seek to define my own sense of appreciation and artistry are present in her singing. Finders keepers, and I am happy in that selfishness.
I have nothing to more to add except - if you like KSC and KJY over TMS and VJ - so be it (no need to line up in the front, you are on the guest list! :-)). At least, now I know where you are coming from - musically and geographically. And I also know what qualifies as "superb" around here - even if that word is used loosely and falsely.
Babu -
Thanks! Good to know that my "rude" rings "right" in some ears here.
"Of course, you may use it the way you choose, as that is your prerogative, even if the usage is wrong. "
Wow..Thanks, but I chose to use it the way webster suggested I should.
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=diction
The meanings listed are:
1. Choice and use of words in speech or writing.
2. Degree of clarity and distinctness of pronunciation in speech or "singing"; enunciation.
If this is not aceptable, I am sure you are writing your own dictionary :-) It reminds me of (the story of )an old man who kept a blue book by redefining words ( 9th grade accompanying text)..and as u put it, if it was his way with life and language and why would I question that ?
infact few tamilians I know call singing as "reading", pAtu nalA padicharunga thane solluvanga!
ayutha ezuthu (therefore )
as per nazz dict ...bb is correct
MS -
I don't want to take coals to newcastle (or ladoos to thirupathi) - but -
If I were writing my own dictionary, then that would resemble my familiarity with OED, which has refined and honed my own usage of words:
"Diction: A person's manner of uttering or pronouncing words." (I doubt Vaali wrote "paarkire" or "nadhi orum" or "vandhanal sundharavalli" (all chinna la, courtesy the singer.) If he had to read his song, I am sure we will hear the "n" "ra" and "naL" "vaLLi") That's my point.
(None of the provided example refer to singers- even in the middle english annotated sourcing.)
I also checked your link - Please look at all the examples provided (Burke, Crabb, De Quincey etc) all refer to Oratory (written and delivered by the AUTHOR.) Clarity, Accuracy, Discursive Variety - are mentioned as components (cf. my list of errors in the original post) - but it still pertains to the Author and her/his Spoken word.
Selective references do a disservice to an honest discussion.
Naaz, Amazing what people will nitpick and find fault with :) I don't see a problem with Chithra's diction in that song (yes, my usage is right, and Diction is commonly used in this meaning).
BTW, sundharavaLLi?? way to go, towards perfect pronounciation.
Here is another link that defines "diction"
http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary
Main Entry: dic?tion
Pronunciation: 'dik-sh&n
Function: noun
Etymology: Latin diction-, dictio speaking, style, from dicere to say; akin to Old English tEon to accuse, Latin dicare to proclaim, dedicate, Greek deiknynai to show, dikE judgment, right
Date: 1581
1 obsolete : verbal description
2 : choice of words especially with regard to correctness, clearness, or effectiveness
3 a : vocal expression : ENUNCIATION b : pronunciation and enunciation of words in singing
- dic?tion?al /-shn&l, -sh&-n&l/ adjective
- dic?tion?al?ly /-E/ adverb
"pronunciation or enunciation of words IN SINGING"
Nowhere it says that its just restricted to the author.
MS's reference is not selective.He merely pasted the exact definition. Selective reference is when you quote selective examples to prove your point.
Naaz..I cannot help but just smile away. Anyway I am pursuing this war of (on ?) words no further. Let this remain SOTD and not WOTD for which one could join the mailing list of dictionary.com or m-w.com :-)
bb-
I was just about make a correction in my typo (yes, all chinna La nevertheless) but my finger was still on "shift" L. Thanks for correcting that on my behalf, before I could. Appreciate it.
-----
Yeah, is just as amazing what people will lie about and call "superb." (what's the criteria??) :-)
(You can use diction any way you want, bb. Kaasa Panama? :-)
yeah, whatever, dude :)
Vijay -
I am not familiar with dictionary.com, nor do I consider it to be any sort of authority (your link did not work, sorry.) Wgat is m-w.com?? (meaning of words dot com??)
The Scribner-Bantam english dictionary (which is not exactly the definitive source for comprehensiveness) defines "Diction" as such: "Diction is a term that is applied to that choice and use of words by which an AUTHOR (emphasis mine) expresses his meaning" (gender specificity theirs).
Why - look at the very etymology of the word - which you have provided: "proclaim, dedicate" both source (implicitly) the "author" (as in "J'accuse!")
MS -
One may smile and smile and...and I'm sure it looks good on you.
Senty -
Just noticed your post. Thanks for your encore listening and the still lingering "dh"oubts!:-)
Naaz, m-w is Merriam Webster. The link is
http://www.m-w.com/
If you have doubts that I "selectively" quoted anything you can type diction and check it out yourself :-))
Naazji, Now that you have defined the meaning of the word 'diction' so brilliantly, now I have a doubt as to what in your opinion is the correct diction of an author (say, like you) who could write a word 'vaazappazam' and pronounce it as 'vaaLappaLam'?
And kudos to you for getting into vaali and finding out how he would have preferred to have his songs pronounced. Great service to honesty!!!
...also you can tell us how he wanted 'laalaakka dOl dappi maa' pronounced. Was that the correct diction vaali intended, sir?
Vijay -
Let's try this one last time (without any links or sources.):
Diction is a "literary" term. It means "To Speak" (from whence we get "dictum") with a clear/precise/accurate choice of words. That's why it is authorial and oratorial - (author's do sing their own ditties, as in a Mushaaira or Kaviarangam, and when they do, you can say that their "diction" was precise and expressive of what they were trying to communicate. Still, essentially, it pertains to "speech" and never to "singing")
A singer does not "speak"; s/he "vocalises". And what's more, they are somebody else's words. Would you give Chitra the credit for Vaali's words/diction? Say she "expresses sincerely emotions of the poet's diction/words" and we may still meet halfway. But that's not what was said.
Hence:
To say that "so and so's diction is superb" is to attribute a literary component to a musician who has neither written the verse/song, nor is it correct usage. Let's turn it around: "Vaali's mezzo is superb!" See how the usage doesn't really work?
bb -
Here's right back at ya, dude!
http://dictionary.cambridge.org/
Definition
diction [Show phonetics]
noun [U]
the manner in which words are pronounced:
[It is very helpful for a language teacher to have good diction.]
(from Cambridge Advanced Learner's Dictionary)
Cambridge University Press 2003
masaal dhOsai nallaa thaan keedhu.. aanaa uruLai kezangu En uruNdai'yaa illai'naa apram, adhukku innaaththukkubaa uruLai'nu pEru'ngraRaaru vaathyaaru? mmmmn.. :>
btw: is the song
"palukuuuuuuuule then" correct diction
for me it sounds like "decogtion"
Sarakumaster can you help me.
kaNNu naazzu, vaalee's diction in that song is superb nnu sonnaa englishkaaran keezppakkaaththaala sirippaan kaNNu. summaa innaamO theriyaama sollipputta adhukku innaaththukubaa immaam rousu? udu nainaa!!
sarthaampaa!! allaarum peria mansu paNNi mannchi uttrungabaa. inimElttu naazu inga pilim kaatta maattaaru.
naaz's quote about honesty and hypocrisy...ROTFL :-)))
Amazing what people will accept and celebrate. But we're all so adept at traversing this thin line between hypocrisy and honesty, we can pat ourselves on the back to raising it to a lever of a fine art. soltaarbaa honestRaj!!
I think naaz's 'diction' intends 'level of a fine art' but his 'addiction' to typo made it a 'lever of a fine art'. First I read it as 'liver of a fine art' and thought this must be some new funda like diction funda.
ay! English padikka daily inga vanthaa pOdhum pOla irukke! :)
Naaz, let me also try this for the last time again.. according to the Merriam Wesbter dictionary "diction " is
vocal expression : ENUNCIATION b : pronunciation and enunciation of words in singing
And so your comment
"Still, essentially, it pertains to "speech" and never to "singing"
is WRONG
And I have read numerous reviews on Carnatic music in Hindu and other magazines where the word diction has been used in the context of singing and we all know that the singer rarely sings his or her own lyrics.
Here is one:
http://www.hinduonnet.com/thehindu/2001/10/25/stories/09250707.htm
"Sudha's diction of the pieces, "Ambaniyirangayenil" (Atana) and "Mamavathusri" (Hindolam) reflected her grasp of their entrancing classical contents.
"
So, of course its used in the context of diction unless otherwise you think everyone else except you is wrong :-)
read the last line as "So, of course its used in the context of singing..."
Why don't we call it the Sandai Of The Day? Sandai(fight) can also be fun!
In Medhuva Medhuva(1st St, Anna Ngr) Chitra sings "kangal moodalle". Dunno if its her fault or the lyricist meant it that way. But it doesnt affect my opinion of her capability any bit.
vijay, good examples and clear logic. You nailed it!! But I am sure our honestRaj's ego is not going to accept it. Let us see whether he is an honest or a hypocrite.
ai.....ivLo naa Richardson a thaan chellamaa Dic*son nu kooppidaraanga nu ninaichchaa, idhukku pinnaala immaam pereeya sariththiramE keedhaa?
class mudinjaappuram yaaraavadhu Udit Narayan endha rank la pass paNNinaar nu sonnaa sowgaryamaa irukkum!
Vijay -
I have some dear friends who are from TN, and tamizh speakers, who constantly use words like "irregardless" when they mean "regardless", or phrases such as "That I can able to do" (Adhai Ennal Seiya Mudiyum, literally) or "That costed us so much," or "They are shifting to another house."
Tamizh/Southern/Northern journalists in India (or anywhere else, if you can give examples) are also prone to following "assumptions" without making the effort confirm or ascertain "foreign" literary usage (this may also be a result of the fact that an "indian" is essentially bilingual, if not trilingual.) Should that be excused? Ignored?
Are they right? Should I tell them? Why bother?
Should I be surprised that this leaks into print? Does that in itself make it right?
It is not about me being wrong or you being right (to reduce our discussion thus far to such a binary does not speak of intellectual maturity.)
Neither is this a "sandai". (Vengayam, did you say, "side-show" :-))
Here's the subtext to all this: you (not you specifically) want to prop up mediocrity and faulty tamizh singing as "superb 'diction' as usual" - go right ahead. I'll just accept that to be your right.
What's more amplified (to me) than "chitra's diction" is the silence of other posters (informed and astute ones) with regards to the song. When people move on to Gowri Manohari and Dharmavathi or violin interludes and chorus, and don't say a word about voice and pronunciation or singing capability, you don't have to be a brainiac to see what's left un-addressed. And deliberately so.
Some might see that hollow as wisdom, and I occasionally do. But silence is also a form of abdication. And more than somewhat cowardly.
RangA-
What happened to Venki?
Naaz-
The "knowledgeable" posters did not talk about sruthi, thaaLam, layam, etc.? Are we to assume that, in your esteemed opinion, they were silent - hence there was a problem?
The dogs did not bark! - Sherlock Holmes kadhai maadhiri irukkE.
Raj - idhukku peru dhaan dict-choom dict-choom:-)
Naaz, do not pretend you know me as you pretend to know the english language. you are exposed and you are one hell of a hypocrite not even to consider that you could be wrong against the majority here. You go on to equate your friends to some critic in the Hindu. You have never even produced one evidence of the usage of the word diction. Please do not talk about honesty.
rajaG -
To talk about ragam thalam pallavi (inclusive of shruti, layam, prayogam) the people indeed have to be "knowledgeable" (I learn a lot from them, incidentally.)
But to talk about simple things - like why is the ending in this word dropped, or what is this word (it sounds like neither this nor that) or isn'this inflection more that than this - all you have to know is the language, and know it correctly (and you don't even have to be a singer or musician :-))
Oh, yes, the dogs did bark. But that only served to throw us all off the chase! :-)
ummm..looking at all the posts so far - raagam thaanam pallavi seem to be far simple than the so called "simple things" like diction or the all encompassing "ALL you have to know is (just) the language" :-)
rajaG
"the dog did not bark" from The Silver Blaze?
"that was odd -Holmes"
"Tamizh/Southern/Northern journalists in India (or anywhere else, if you can give examples) are also prone to following "assumptions" without making the effort confirm or ascertain "foreign" literary usage (this may also be a result of the fact that an "indian" is essentially bilingual, if not trilingual.) Should that be excused? Ignored?
Are they right? Should I tell them? Why bother?
Should I be surprised that this leaks into print? Does that in itself make it right?
"
Naaz, so now I am to assume that both the dictionary as well as all the Journalists in South India are wrong while blindly accept what you say as the norm? Great! What else have you got? :-) I have to agree with Ranga in that you cannot extend the benefit of doubt to other posters even a wee bit in spite of authentic proof furnished by everyone else. I am YET to see concrete proof from your side for any of your assumptions.
"It is not about me being wrong or you being right (to reduce our discussion thus far to such a binary does not speak of intellectual maturity.) "
This coming from someone who doesnt trust the integrity of people he is discussing with accusing them of misquoting or selective referencing and what not ..:-) Hmm..hypocrisy
"What's more amplified (to me) than "chitra's diction" is the silence of other posters (informed and astute ones) with regards to the song. When people move on to Gowri Manohari and Dharmavathi or violin interludes and chorus, and don't say a word about voice and pronunciation or singing capability, you don't have to be a brainiac to see what's left un-addressed. And deliberately so.
"
That depends on what the listener's priorities are. Simple. There are far more positives in Chitra's singing for any of the listeners to be fixated with just one aspect-PRONUNCIATION and even in that examples of her "mistakes" have mostly been proven invalid in the past.
Vijay -
What more concrete proof do you want?
Just take a close look at the word: Diction.
And while you're at it also look up: Dictum, Dictate, Dictionary,Indict...If you still insist that those words refer "singing" - sorry guy, I have got nothing else. (I've given you the OED, SBD definitions, but those are flawed, as they don't mention "singing" anywhere - not even as the 10 or 12 meaning, even if it were "authorial" singing.)
I guess the contrary example fell by the wayside ("Vaali's mezzo is superb.") Shoddy journalism (or linguistic grasp)is not exclusive to India. It is universal. So, The Hindu and "other" journals use the word "diction" the way you understand or recognise it. (They also use it "irregardless" of it being wrong.) I guess that must make it right.
No, Vijay, don't "assume" anything. Seek it out for yourself. And don't settle for something only because it serves your purposes. Make sure it is - really,really RIGHT.
I am glad you agree with RangA (and he with you.) Birds of a feather, I suppose (the majority is always right argument.) If that "strength in numbers" thing is the line that divides hypocrisy from honesty, truth from falsehood, approp from malaprop -
Why would you wait up for me to give you the benefit of doubt? You are part of a crowd that's so sure about its sources and specifics - what should I say? Diction-less am I :-)
Naaz, the definition that I posted clearly includes the word "singing" and it is from 2 different sources on the net. Merriam and dictionary.com
"Shoddy journalism (or linguistic grasp)is not exclusive to India. It is universal. So, The Hindu and "other" journals use the word "diction" the way you understand or recognise it. (They also use it "irregardless" of it being wrong.) I guess that must make it right. "
Yeah right. They are all wrong, I guess.I mean eveyone of them is ignorant.
In fact here is a book titled "A Handbook of Diction for Singers"
http://www.oup-usa.org/isbn/0195120779.html
Oh wait.. I know what you are going to say for this already..I know the author is ignorant and know nothing :-)
"No, Vijay, don't "assume" anything. Seek it out for yourself. And don't settle for something only because it serves your purposes. Make sure it is - really,really RIGHT.
"
I am not the one who is assuming here. I have clearly backed my statements with published facts.
And how would you know that you are "really really right"? Just because you say so? We have furnished enough proof of the word's meaning and its usage from diffeernt sources. Right now whats stopping you from seeing the facts clearly is just your own high self-esteem(read EGO). You seem to be a guy who always wants to have the last word in a discussion and I shall let you have it. I dont need to bother any further I guess. You are welcome to live in your own illusional world of "diction"s and contra"diction"s :-))
intha aangilEya saniyanungaLa othaikkanum. oor muzhukka saniyan pudicha mozhi-ya parappittaanunga.
Thamizh paattu pathi pEsara edathula dictionary...sigh... agaraathi(vEra artham illappaa!) pathi pEsa vachittaanunga asingam pudichavanunga.
"vaarthai uchcharippu"-nu "damil"-la sonnaa yaemmaa intha kuthal, kudaisal, nakkal, naiyaandi
che che... naaraasamaa irukkuppaa :-)
nazzji, american heritage dictionary fourth edition says
SYLLABICATION: dic?tion
PRONUNCIATION: dkshn
NOUN: 1. Choice and use of words in speech or writing. 2. Degree of clarity and distinctness of pronunciation in speech or singing; enunciation.
and Merriam-webster says
1 obsolete : verbal description
2 : choice of words especially with regard to correctness, clearness, or effectiveness
3 a : vocal expression : ENUNCIATION b : pronunciation and enunciation of words in singing
The point to note here is that the meaning you suggest is given by both dictionaries as #1 (merriam says it is obsolete. So you must be a very old guy. Did you live in the period of shakesphere ?) it does not restrict it to that meaning alone. They both clearly refer singing along with speaking in the other meanings. For your information, many english words have more than one meaning and more than one usage. Just do not harp on 'What I said alone is right' monologue. Others could also be right. That means you pointing flaw at other's usage is wrong. Case closed.
Naaz,vijay,MS,bb et al: I just wanted to see how far it goes! Diction is associated with singing. In this context it refers to enunciation. Obviously none of you had any exposure to formal training in music in the west. Nothing serious. One of my children was in the school choir. At the end of one performance, the teacher complimented him on his diction and suggested he consider music in college. She also recommended a course on 'Diction for singing' in the local university. My son did take music in college for fun, but piano and computer music.
All you have to do is to visit some university website and browse the course listing in music . It will show a course on 'Diction in singing' for various languages. As you know, you need that course if you want to sing in French. Hope this settles it.
Ranga you cannot assume that the dictionaries are right.. you have to really really really seek out the ultimate truth :-)))
Raj, why dont you address that JUST to Naaz? :-)
FYI, I have already posted a link for a book on diction in singing written by a Western author
Vijay -
Yeah, don't bother. I shouldn't have either. One can only talk linguistics to people who are genuinely interested in linguistics. I'll keep my Ego. And you can celebrate your selflessness :-)
(BTW "The Handbook of Diction for Singers" - that's a good one. Please read the introduction blurb (I did.) It is about "teaching" english "speaking" singers how pronounce to german, french and italian. In other words (sic) - what to do with the "english" phonemes, and how to alter/enunciate them when dealing with german "words" and "sounds."
The handbook provides them (the singers) with the "words" and how they "work" in those languages. Hence the title - "Handbook of ((French, German, Italian)Diction for Singers."
So - is the diction the singer's? No, the diction is of the french, german and italian languages (and the author who wrote that book for singers.)
The book teaches the singer to "pronounce" "express" and "elong/shorten" the foreign words (diction) in the "right" way.
But why bother with such a distinction, especially when I don't know what I'm talking about?)
>>>I have some dear friends ....who constantly use words like "irregardless" when they mean "regardless", or phrases such as "That I can able to do" <<
Vijay, that reminds me of a Chemistry teacher's classic: Each one take one one test tube and do the experiment separate separately!
End dig....
vijay: Thanks for the link. I have a number of books on western music at home including the Oxford Dictionary of Music. It also says that diction in singing refers to enunciation. If you see my post Naaz appears first. Hope he reads it and browses the website of some music college or conservatory. Next time I will address only Naaz, if that is what you would like.
Naaz, the word diction has been used in the context of singing, thats all there is to it. If there can be "diction for singers" then there is nothing wrong in saying that "Chithra possesses good diction" .Simple. Its not rocket science. But I guess I can only debate so much with a person who speaks with a tone which conveys that the whole world is wrong and he is right, even after he is proved otherwise. I can continue to give more examples of diction being used in the context of rock singers like Billy Joel etc. but it would be a waste of time. When your ego has simmered down considerably you can do some google search yourself and find out the "truth". Although judging from how you have ignored the proof given by us so far from online dictionaries I guess its not going to change your stance much.
Bye.
Vijay -
Not so fast :-)
Diction (vocabulary/words) is a component of written/spoken Language (any). Pronunciation/Enunciation, on the other hand, is what the singer/speaker does with the "diction" (words). Say that the singer has "superb P or E" and I'll say we're on the same team - wholeheartedly (cf. raj's "diction in singing refers to "enunciation" (of the words in that particular language.)
In summation: Language always and already possesses "diction." (a body of words) If "diction" is used in the context of "singing" then it refers exclusively to the "words" in a song (lyrics - that's it.) Hence, the singer can be commended for the "pronunciation" of the "diction" (which is enunciation) of a certain language/song - but not for his/her "diction" - as that belongs to the author and his/her choice of words to express a particular emotion/sentiment/whatever - in any chosen language.
Why is this such a hard concept to grasp?
And what's egotistical about pointing this common misuse?
And when did I say the whole world was wrong? I merely said that the usage (diction as terminology) is erroneous.
Raj -
I did not take any offense to your post. In fact, it had a line that I found to go to the heart of this discussion - which is about usage and terminology. Thanks for that definition from ODOM.
naazu, The majority is always right is a good argument because if the majority feels Chitra's diction is superb then that's what counts. And if the majority feels that 'saying chitra's diction is superb ' is right english then that too counts. appaala, nee innaaththukku inga koovikkinu keera?
diction cannot belong to the writer because as a mere word it has no pronounciation. Diction comes into play only when a word is pronounced. Diction in fact means how a word is pronounced. Where it is stressed and where it is lengthened etc. 'eppdi irukku udambu' can be written only one way but can be pronounced three different ways. That is where the diction comes into play. So it is clearly in the pronouncer's arena. (we have seen naaz's ego and honesty. Now let us see his tenacity!!)
Naaz, you can repeat the same thing again and again, it doesnt change anything unless you are willing to show us some proof that our usage of diction is wrong. So far, all definitions of diction shown prove our usage to be very valid.
I see that you are ignoring this:
vocal expression : ENUNCIATION b : pronunciation and enunciation of words in singing
So Diction is equivalent to vocal expression.Its like saying "Chithra has good vocal expression". Or its like saying "Chithra displays good pronunciation of words". It doesnt have to do ONLY with the language as you keep repeating.There could be several meanings/usages for a word in case you didnt know that.
And if you still think you are right and they are wrong you can always write to Webster-Merriam and let them know they are wrong.As a professional writer, I am sure you would be concerned about disagreeing with the rest of the planet on a simple word usage :-)
Ranga, dont sweat it out any further:-). Naaz already made up his mind when he claimed that bb "lied" and "erred".For someone claiming to be interested in having an "intellectual discussion" on linguistics he sure started off on the right foot :-))
Hey naaz,
C&P
And what's egotistical about pointing this common misuse
I have to correct one more of your wrong english. We were talking about your ego. So you should be replying about your egoistical nature. egotistical means one talking about himself with a lot of usage of the word 'I'. We do not charge you of any egotism. only mere egoism. (We can now fight on egoism and egotism!!)
Has anyone figured out what the third way of pronouncing 'eppdi irukku udambu'? Please think about it and let me know when you figured it.
Vijay -
"vocal expression : ENUNCIATION b : pronunciation and enunciation of ---words--- in singing"
Crucial letters: "words" (lyrics in a song)
And where do they come from? Language.
Who chooses/writes them? Poet/Lyricist/Author.
Does the singer choose the words? S/he only enunciates. Hence the qualification as "ENUNCIATION."
What your definitions have shown so far (which you seem to have consistently missed) is that they make a distinction between "diction" and "enunciation" - (cf. intro to Handbook of Diction (words) for singers.)
But your latter qualification is bull's eye: "Chithra displays good pronunciation of words/diction." Yes! (if you think that to be true.)
As opposed to "Chithra possesses good diction." (Which she might, on her own, when she writes a letter or gives a speech written in "her choice" of "words" from a language.) As proof I will point to the ODOM definition provided by Raj. It makes a categorical distinction. And that's what I have been saying all along.
Here's a corollary: "So and So possesses superb ragas." Is that possible?
Now: "So and so possesses superb prayoga of ragas" Isn't that possible?
Diction and Pronunciation are not interchangeable, unfortunately (the former is a component of language (even if unspoken, it still exists,) the latter is the "articulation" of that part of the language.) But you're in good company - RangA (appreciate your terms of endearment, BTW) is sure that diction means how words are pronounced.
Are there more where these linguistic leaps (and freaks) of faith come from? I'm sure there must be.
bb, please don't mention SJ or KSC as the female singer. Mention the singer as VJ. 'Amazing what people will tolerate and celebrate';-)
What an IRony!:-)
Naaz, you are just twisting what Raj said. Raj never said that the words have to be Chithra's own anywhere. Thats just a figment of your imagination. However Raj did say:
". At the end of one performance, the teacher complimented him on his diction"
In other words the teacher said that his diction was good, which is the same way bb has used it.
He said "Chithra's diction is good". There is nothing wrong in it.
diction doesnt merely mean "words" of course, it refers to the enunciation/pronunciation of the words and can be used synonymously.That the words have to be Chithra's OWN is not stated anywhere, its just needless extrapolation on your part.The words might be the author's but the pronunciation or enunciation or the diction is the singer's.
I understand that you lack proof for validating your assumptions, but that doesnt mean you have to invent one :-)
"Diction and Pronunciation are not interchangeable"
I am sorry but the dictionary says otherwise.
"Are there more where these linguistic leaps (and freaks) of faith come from?
"
I dont know, but I am sure you must know more about it:-)
bb,
machi, oru paravai muniammaa paattai adutha paattaa eduthu udu. muniammaa pronunciation pathi yaaraavathu paesinaa keesiduvaen.
Hey naaz ,
I understand your difficulty. You had blabbered something. And we instigated your ego. Now you cannot go back on your words. So you blabber more. Unless you are a true gentleman you cannot accept defeat. ozinji pO mavanE!! Go on about misinterpreting other things ridiculously.
naaz, explain what is diction? If it is not interchangeable with pronunciation, it is not interchangeable with 'words' either. Or is it? (By your own grammar school?) In the sentence 'naazamaa pORiyaa?' what is diction?
a : vocal expression : ENUNCIATION b : pronunciation and enunciation of words in singing
Why did you leave out 'vocal expression'. That was also a meaning for diction. Now tell me which is the keyword here and how is this related to the lyricist. vocal expression comes from voice and expression. Right? Or what is your double somersault twisted meaning here. I am interested.
Naaz, let me misinterpret that in your way.
Vocal expression: Keyword expression.
Who expresses ? The Lyricist.
How does he express? Through words
So the singer just vocally transforms the expression of the lyricist..that is ..transforms the diction of the lyricist.
Hey..it is very obvious..
another empirical equation.
Singer belongs to the lyricist.
Proof (by Prof. naaz)
What does the singer sing ? SONG
So the singer belongs to the song.
But who does the song belong to? The lyricist.
So using set theory and DeMovier's theorem every singer belongs to the lyricist.
Ranga your (mis)interpretation reminds me of how Janakaraj finds out about "Villupaattu" in Aboorva Sagodharargal :-)))
the first thing i did was to search for the word 'diction' in bb's post..Thank God..:-)
LLD, yes, Bharathidasan's diction was great in this song :-) :))))
Senty -
"I got a basic doubt...
there are lot of words that have more than one meaning.. can't 'diction' be one such word.which has 2 meanings depending on the context in which it is used...??"
I hope this query is genuine, and I will do my best to address your interest in understanding with sincerity.
Your post (a few lines) is a good place to begin:
You ask (speak) a question, and in the act of framing that question, you choose appropriate words (from a whole body of words in a language) and arrange them into sentences. That choice and ordering of words you speak, is YOUR diction (or a sample of your "vocabulary." ) An arrangement of sound patterns - "words"
How well you utter the sound patterns/words (a unit of language) you have arranged as you pose your question is PRONUNCIATION/ENUNCIATION ( if you check both these terms, you will find them to be synonymous.) You can mispronounce everything, but you will not be denied your diction (your choice and ordered expression of words.) That will still remain.
Is Sol the same thing as Uchcharippu? (they both pertain to speech) Sol (word) always remains a unit of language. Uchcharippu changes from person to person. What are the multiple meanings of "Sol"?
Your answer to this question of mine will also be the answer be the answer to the question you pose (to me.)
naaz, can you start another thread on diction and continue there.. let the SOTD go on here.
NagaS (answer to an old response),
The lyrics from Unnal Mudhiyam Thambi seem like the dubbing versions of the original telugu songs which had lyrics by Seetha Rama Shastry.
I wouldn't be surprised if the lyrics of UMT were by Rajashri or whoever does good dubbing poetry from Telugu to Tamil.
rags -
I appreciate your suggestion, and will not raise this issue here - again.
Just curious: Why single me out when there have been other discussants who have had more posts on this topic than me? At least I have been civil in this exchange throughout, which you must have noticed?
Naaz since you started this topic, I specified your name.Thanks for your understanding.
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